We have been slipping more and more into casual gameplay as of recently. This is evident in the way we deal with contact and made worse by "casual" missions such as Antistasi, wave defense, lib, star wars campaign.
The solution is obviously not to ban other game modes but rather to "switch on" during game nights on tuesdays and fridays. When I first joined, there was emphasis on formations, bounding, and procedure. A few weeks ago when I called a bounding maneuver as Alpha squad lead it seemed like everybody was learning what bounding is on the fly. This is taught in the basic boot camp when you first join.
The solution? I’m not entirely sure. Have Ssgts be aware of the problem and tell people to shut the fuck up when the situation requires it, the same goes for squad leads, I think. Its okay to be confrontational if someone fucks about, IMO.
The perfect example for this is [user avatar=“https://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/16274568/avatar/small.1591361600.png” name=“Garf”]16274568[/user] . The man is a living meme, we all know this. But when shit hits the fan I know he’ll switch on and won’t banter or do stupid shit until the situation is resolved.
I won’t call out the names of people that don’t do this, but we all need to be able to do this. We can’t stand in the open, return fire like the enemy is shooting BBs at us rather than bullets (yes I know its a game). But people begin complaining about the medical system when they don’t even put their heads down when a machine gunner opens fire on them and rather return fire expecting to win that firefight.
This thread is really meant more for discussion than anything else. Am I exaggerating? Has it always been like this? I don’t think so but I’m keen to hear more opinions.
Our health/ damage system is such a joke, that it’s hard to take anything seriously. Formations or tactics don’t really seem to matter at the moment. I hope we can fix that some day, until then we will get more casual by the day, I certainly will.
One part of the problem is that the various team leaders have gotten pretty lax in the way they lead. I’m not saying you need to micromanage every grunt in your team, but your role is to lead and set a good example for the people in your team in the way you act and communicate.
Quite a few times I’ve been part of a team where I had to ask what formation we were taking (though by default it is Wedge) when we were transforming into a blob with the leader responding with something akin to "I don’t care" or "I don’t mind". I feel like that kinda stuff is bad for all kinds of reasons. Even if you DON’T care, just name something and look like you are in charge so your team doesn’t slump into a mess.
Same goes with vehicles lately. Though it is well handeled during vehicle training, I feel like in the last few months the vehicle crews I’ve been part of have gotten pretty lax from a commander’s POV. Vehicle commanders need to be in charge and take command and give precise orders, but that hasn’t been happening enough recently.
People who decide to take leadership roles need to be able to control their troops and keep the basics going, meaning spacing (I know, my eternal nail to beat), formations, and even just the very basics like knowing what terms like bounding means. If you forget as a leader (which happens, whatever) just ask over radio for clarification.
As I said last week, I don’t lead much because I got burned out on it in my last unit, but I’ll try leading more again in whatever role so I can at least show what I mean instead of just complaining about it online :).
But basically:
Leaders:
You are a leader first, radio man second. Make sure that your team is doing what it should be doing, where it should be doing it. Recently I’ve seen leaders wander off a few times in the assumption that their team knew what was going on, leaving half or more of them behind.
Make sure that formations and spacing is maintained. Not always possible or even wanted, but if you have a second make sure that your people are where they should be in the formation. This has not happened enough recently and has led to tactical blobbing.
If you don’t have the time or mental space to lead your team and be a call center operator at the same time, get your 2IC to manage the troops while you do whatever you need to do that that time. But make sure you communicate.
Don’t be afraid to sound like an ass when getting your troops in line, this goes for your 2IC too. Obviously don’t be a dick for no reason, but in simple terms it is their job to do as you say and your job to make sure they are doing that.
For everyone else:.
Do your best to not spam radios.
Do your best to know and follow basic formations (Especially wedge, ie. LMG on one side for the TL, AAR on the other with AT in the back of that side).
Keep your spacing. We have had a lot of blobs that had mass cass because they were all hiding in one spot, or were all trying to get medics in one area.
Medics: try no to clear houses, and if there is a mass cass, try to not blob with other medics or you’ll have the chance to cause more harm than good.
Fix your microphones. Goes everyone really, people need to be able to understand what you are saying, or it will lead to misunderstandings and annoyances.
Use grenades, but when you do, make sure that people know where it is going BEFORE you throw it. Same with back blasts on AT. Saying clear back blast and shooting in the same instance is pointless.
Again, I’ll see about taking more lead roles and "leading by example".
We only take casualties at extreme situations.
Damage falls of at range very quickly which means I can ignore enemies past 100 meters, and even if they down me, they will never finish me off, and I can be picked up no problem.
The amount of bullets It takes to kill (both ways) has the same effect that’s intentional in games like cod, where the first shot, or tactics doesn’t matter so much.
oh and grenades are straight up less than lethal.
(edit). with a bit more damage, we can also reduce the amount of enemies in missions.
I definitely feel guilty, I haven’t actually looked at our settings to see what we could exactly do to fix it. I’ve been meaning to, but, you know.
[quote user_id=“8030574” avatar=“https://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/8030574/avatar/medium.1500627185.png” name=“Hateboarder”]We only take casualties at extreme situations.
Damage falls of at range very quickly which means I can ignore enemies past 100 meters, and even if they down me, they will never finish me off, and I can be picked up no problem.
The amount of bullets It takes to kill (both ways) has the same effect that’s intentional in games like cod, where the first shot, or tactics doesn’t matter so much.
oh and grenades are straight up less than lethal.
I definitely feel guilty, I haven’t actually looked at our settings to see what we could exactly do to fix it. I’ve been meaning to, but, you know.[/quote]
Agreed (especially about grenades, fuck me).
I think the only way to "fix" it is to have instant death upon headshots, or a 50/50 chance of death upon headshots. I dont know if this is an option in ACE medical, and I dont know how many people would be against that.
On another note, there is a mod out there that makes grenades more lethal, like they should be.
I’m going to add this, even though I’m just a recruit.
I have found this mod, but not tested it. But it might help tweak the AI into something more leathal. CF_BAI
Just a short reply but the increase in damage resistance was a widely asked for request by the community during our various testing sessions in 2020 because people kept complaining about being shot uncon by single bullets - the main way to address this is to up the damage resistance. Back then I was in the clear minority wanting more punishing settings - i.e. default damage resistance, default bloodloss (ours is currently reduced) and the ability to insta-die.
However, I also think the medical system debate should be held in the actual ongoing discussion on the Brainstorming Forum: Forums - Carpe Noctem
To anyone interested in contributing there: take a look at our cba settings, test your own combination of parameters and make a concrete suggestion for implementation. Keep in mind that almost all parameters are highly interconnected, thus tweaking one usually has a wide-reaching effect on the entire medical system - which is the exact reason why it took months in 2020 to come to an agreement within the community that the current settings are somewhat suitable.
This mod conflicts with LAMBS AI, thus should not be used in conjunction. It was among the first things asked by nKenny when I was discussing recent issues with him.
I agree with what was said here. Even if from my perspective people I was with were actually serious in situations where it counted, obviously mixed in with a few unrelated chit chats at idle times, which is pretty good in my opinion, I still think that in order to make people care more about our formations and tactics is to change the environment around them that makes them take a more serious approach to their own individual playstyle. Nobody wants to sit around for around an hour for the reinsert in case they die, so an increased difficulty damage-wise would make people be a lot more careful about what they do.
While discussing about what changes we should make, we should keep in mind that telling people to play differently is a bad way of handling it and is pretty much impossible, but we can very much change the environment that in turn will change the way people will play.
As Baegel said here:
[quote user_id=“2509934” avatar=“https://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/2509934/avatar/medium.1584375752.gif” name=“Baegel”]Agreed (especially about grenades, fuck me).
I think the only way to "fix" it is to have instant death upon headshots, or a 50/50 chance of death upon headshots. I dont know if this is an option in ACE medical, and I dont know how many people would be against that.
On another note, there is a mod out there that makes grenades more lethal, like they should be.[/quote]
An increased chance that someone could die if they made a bad decision (such as rushing in video game style or not maintaining spacings/formations/watch zones) will definitely make people more aware of what they’re doing, without us slipping into the Milsim territory, because at that point it’s just a more difficult game that keeps people awake.
To step away from the ACE medical settings for a bit, I also 100% agree with Aether that we’ve had some bad examples in leadership, with a laissez-faire approach happening too often.
Again, as opposed to calling out names I’d rather focus on someone who does it right:
[user avatar=“https://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/20330489/avatar/small.1594394879.png” name=“Mattdogs”]20330489[/user] consistently keeps his squad updated with Platoon orders, has good radio comms, orders squad formations and bounding maneuvers when possible. He is not some paragon of perfection but he has a really good attitude.
Since our trainings are voluntary, our leadership isn’t going to get better any time soon. So I’d rather focus on attitude like Aether did. If you are going to lead, make sure you have the right attitude and at least pretend like you give a shit, even if you don’t.
Though I wouldn’t mind more lethal stuff, I feel like instant death by headshot might not be the way to go. I think that that will feel unfair as you can do everything right and still die "randomly". I think it would be better to have more punishing general settings than instant death. IE. worse body armor for example.
That said, I don’t think it would be a good thing if we let this thread turn into something that is just about the health system, since we already have threads about that bit. it’s definitely part of the problem, but I think there are more things we can or should work on that don’t get enough attention as is.
I can see the issue too but I don’t think the issue is the medical system. I think [user avatar=“https://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/319225/avatar/small.1399937338.png” name=“Aether”]319225[/user] has it right and anyone who steps into a leadership role has to put their foot down a bit more
Personally I can see the focus on more "leadership" or more "telling people to be more serious about things" being kind of ineffective. Don’t get me wrong, it is a job of leaders to make sure the ones they’re leading are following orders, however I think that only band-aids the problems. To me either the missions need to be more difficult from a strategic standpoint, which is pretty difficult to do without making things unfair, or our systems need to be tweaked (not specifically only ACE Medical), which in itself isn’t really unfair because everyone play on the same level as the one next to them, it’s just more difficult.
Edit: Forgot to say that a difficulty that is not interesting enough will push even leaders to say "yeah do whatever", because there is no inherent "need" to play in an advanced tactical manner.
[quote user_id=“3449717” avatar=“https://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/3449717/avatar/medium.1618397015.png” name=“Killerbyte”]
Edit: Forgot to say that a difficulty that is not interesting enough will push even leaders to say "yeah do whatever", because there is no inherent "need" to play in an advanced tactical manner.[/quote]
Not to be a dick, but if that is your mindset (Not you you, but in general), you should not be taking a leadership role. This kinda stuff sets a bad example that seeps through every bit of gameplay over time, which I’ve seen before. Also, if you don’t maintain these standards, good luck trying to up the difficulty because as your fire teams get slaughtered they’ll complain that it is too hard and then you have that issue again. Round in circles you go.
[quote user_id=“319225” avatar=“https://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/319225/avatar/medium.1399937338.png” name=“Aether”]
Not to be a dick, but if that is your mindset (Not you you, but in general), you should not be taking a leadership role. This kinda stuff sets a bad example that seeps through every bit of gameplay over time, which I’ve seen before.[/quote]
Absolutely, this kind of mindset is not only useless, but also sets a bad example as you said. My point was solely made to illustrate a possibility of something like this happening given conditions mentioned before (that we can change to prevent this kind of mindset) and given that, at the end of the day, we are playing a videogame, which is not something you can permanently fix with just words.
But this is all just my opinion made with some logical assumptions and putting myself into an average joe’s shoes.
A suggestion. Would it be a good idea to add a channel on discord for the teamleads to be able to easily talk on. Be it about tactics, etiquette, or whatever else. It might be good to have a dedicated place to be able to talk about this stuff (and I personally don’t like using the forum for it).
On the off-chance of sounding too positive but I’ve had far more operations that were well balanced between having some downtime banter and performing well under pressure than the opposite this year. :d Due to my health issues I could only play once a week for the past two weeks so maybe I missed some really bad operations recently.
I’ve been in situations where long-range comms were a bit chaotic and I think voice comms have suffered a bit due to JSRS and people still getting used to the increased volume / having to rebalance their audio settings to be as efficient in comms as before. But I haven’t really observed generalised slacking off, poor behaviour or completely unplayable ops this year.
However, I do still notice that contact reports are a general weak point in the community, most contact reports I hear do not expound past "CONTACT WEST". I also agree with others that when you’re in leadership you should always employ your full tactical toolbox regardless of the perceived lack of difficulty, because we did have several platoon wipes this year and they are usually the result of people assuming things are easy and manageable until they get suddenly surprised by a cascade of bad situations - i.e. use bounding overwatch as an SL even if you think it’s unlikely you’ll hit contact right away, call for disengagements/peeling off before your squad suffers several casualties etc.
I also agree with what some mentioned here and on discord that "yelling at people" is usually not the way to go, reminding them firmly however is fair game. And I don’t think you need to be SSgt, Cpl or even element leader to do so - if you are an AR and you observe your entire squad is tactical blobbing remind people to spread out via voice comms, if you see the entire squad rearming together at one box ask the SL if he shouldn’t be telling elements to rearm separately to ensure security. I think this is all about tone and not about rank within the community - if you make your point calmly but firmly in most cases players recognise that they are right and people should be putting their game faces back on.
Quick recap:
When I joined up again in 2019, our ops were very lackluster. People did not know basic things or did not wanted to use them like formations or tactics. To make a change, I joined the training team and together with the other members we set up the basic fireteam qualification. Where basic things like formations are taught and practiced. We noticed a big change in the way we played after the first 2 BFQ’s where people took things a lot more serious and used proper tactics (at least if you ask me).
However during some point in 2020, we moved back in to the "less serious" segment again. Some people blamed the OPs and campaigns being less serious and therefor not needing to behave serious. I contribute it more to things that happened at the time and the behavior of a few members not acclimating to the OPs but being in a more casual mood. That then caused a chain effect and other people followed.
This was felt by a big part of the community and we now changed the rules around campaigns. Hopefully that already fixes things a bit already especially in the end of the year when we have more "less serious" OPs like the santa mission or the owlympics.
Now to look into our current situation.
2 weeks ago on Friday we had the nuclear bomber mission.
I feel our formations and teamplay was quite good and there was hardly messing around. Only during the way into the AO we took it casual because we were just sailing our way over. The rest of the mission I would say we used decent tactics and we had people step up and use formations. During multiple times I heard formation call outs and stuff, so pretty good.
The last Friday op was excellent. We used excellent formations and tactics. To be fair, it was a BFQ with a mini OP attached to it and after it was over during the briefing we went over some improvements we could have made and situations we got in. I really loved this approach. From a trainer perspective we went back and talked about how we could have done it different and how it could have been avoided and everyone listened and discussed it respectfully. This was done after the mission though, not during. Which unfortunately has happened before where people refused to follow orders when they didn’t agree and made up their own plans. Which then because of the argument slowed down the OP and the mood of people during the rest of the OP. It also comes over as "normal" and other people might adapt to that way of playing and thus dragging down other OPs.
I haven’t played the Star Wars campaign but I assume some of this feedback comes from that where members might take it as "less serious" as it’s not our default setting. I even read in the discord I believe that people gave feedback about this. Is this the fault of the campaign being in a different setting? No I don’t think so. I think it’s a personal thing. It’s not our standard therefor I don’t have to follow standard procedures. If you notice this during the mission or as a leader of an element, I would pick this up with the person or the whole element and see if you can ask people to get their "CNTO Mode on".
I think my point here is. Be respectful to others in giving feedback but don’t be afraid to speak up if you notice a player is out of line or misbehaving. Play an OP as real as possible (even RP if you have to) and don’t get distracted by the behavior of others or picking up the initiative to voice your concerns to them. If others behave inappropriately or are disruptive, talk to them about it and discuss it either in debrief or in TS after if you don’t want to talk to them directly.
Alternatively you can always reach out to me during a mission if you don’t want to reach out to the player directly or if you need a second opinion. I completely agree that we sometimes are too casual and I want to change this too. So if you think your out of line approaching a person feel free to message me on Steam or talk to me during the mission and I can pick it up instead. However I don’t think a SSGT is the only person that can do this. It should not mather what rank you are or who you are. If you see people making clear mistakes or leaders not calling for formations, talk to them and maybe teach them a thing or two in formations that they can utilize straight away. Also don’t be afraid to remind people not to use the radio’s when it’s not needed. There is nothing more troublesome for a lead then hearing 2 voices at once in your ear. One giving you orders and the other talking about spaghetti and meatballs.
To the medical topic. I don’t think there are a lot of issues other then it just not being perfect. However no medical system is perfect. Yes grenades could be more lethal, but you have to understand that we already noticed this during the testing and the general consensus at the time was to change the settings so we could take more damage before we would go unconscious. A change I still feel is very good. It’s not an easy change to make grenades more lethal.
Another thing you can do, but then this would be your own choice. If you feel we need to die more often. When you have wounds or had a grenade go off. Hit escape and hit respawn. Yes you will die, but if this is the feedback that we don’t die enough I would suggest starting to play the way you would like to see the system and see if this makes you feel better about it. With this "test" we can at least check if it makes people that feel dying is not often enough and therefor not taking it to serious, play any different. It would be up to the person themselves making the call to die yes or no though.
I agree with Clarke, 2020 and 2021 so far (from the OPs I have played) have been amongst my favorite OPs! If you think it’s bad now, be happy you weren’t here before because it’s pretty good right now, aldo I agree it can always get better obviously as you can see by my lengthy response
While i know the conversation has mostly moved away from medical this is something i simply must speak out against.
In my experience the majority of times i go down in the first few engagements are headshots and often because we have a somewhat decent position and cover it will be the only wound suffered, and in the many times i play medic i often see this in others in the first few engagements if this headshot was instant death or even a half chance of instant death it would not only be frustrating but downright disheartening to join and op get through selection shoot the shit while command gets a plan up and either ride or walk just to be killed by the first shot that hits you.
And the faster it happens/the shorter the OP the worse it is. I am reminded of the first of two one life missions we had not so long ago when during convoy both me and the other passenger in the back of a vehicle got shot and went down en route and since neither of the people in the front seats checked on us untill they reached their destination only one of us could be saved meaning one of us didnt even get a chance to even interact with the mission. Now even outside of one life missions do we really want to rob someone of an hours play time because they got unlucky in the first engagement?.
