Coop - Operation Dark Crusade Part 1

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I was playing as the AT rifleman for once to see this part of the operations also. I did not expect us to be able to be that stealthy. I had a couple of issues though. I was surprised by how little information was passed down the line. It was really rare for FTLs or SLs to pass down any crucial information. Most of the time I did not know where we were, where the friendlies were and what they were doing. Considering this it is surprising that there wasn’t any more blue-on-blue. Every flanking action and all other troop movements should be communicated to everyone, not just over the long range.

I agree with Berenton, played as AR and unfortunately my internet dropped right before the final assault, although until that very moment it was all about running to an OW point, holding, moving again for apparently no reason even though the plan was explained very well.

I would also like to ask [user avatar=“” name=“Xerses”]606558[/user] and every other member of CNTO who plays FTL not only to share a bit of what the platoon is doing but also, and more importantly, to actively state what the fireteam is going to do. I never heard "Bravo 1 we’re moving" or "Green watch this bearing" I just did what I heard on radio and that was quite annoying, it really felt like we were just four guys fooling around following directly what SL ordered.

The high attendance definitely caught GMs off guard I believe and I would still like to thank [user avatar=“” name=“Dachi”]12591864[/user] for the mission.

But … isn’t that the whole point of a fireteam? Why would you introduce the additional delay of the platoon-squad "interface" to the squad-fireteam "interface"? To me, an FTL is there only to take initiative when others waver and to resolve unclear situations about the SL’s orders. The FTL should be more of a grenadier than a team leader (which is why the role has more HEs than SL).

Even though I admit we rarely play like that, due to low numbers and thus fireteams needing to be fairly autonomous. Still, this is IIRC the reason why we have a single radio channel for squad net, to avoid FTLs "translating" the SL orders.

The individual situations may vary (no idea what exactly happened on the mission), for example it’s perfectly fine for FTL to act more authoritatively ("let’s go guys!") and fine-tune the orders on the fireteam level, but - in general - the SL is ordering the 4 soldiers to move, not giving permission to the FTL to let the others to move.

(At least that’s how I understood the squads we have now. I have no idea why we insist on filling a single complete Alpha, only to be logically split onto distant fireteams that get used like squads, instead of partially filling Alpha and Bravo in the first place.)

The way I’ve always interpreted the relationship between PLT - SL - FTL is basically a matter of scale and granularity.

Essentially, PLT looks at the map, decides on a plan, and then says to SL, "Go to wherever is best in this rough 300m area and do the thing."

The SL then surveys the area in person through his binocs, and says to the FTLs, "Go to wherever is best in this rough 100m area, and do the thing."

and then the FTL goes off in that general direction, looks around for cover and advantageous positions, and says to his team, "Go to those exact spots and do the thing."

A gross over-simplification, but that’s the general gist of it to me at least.

Jash has exactly the right idea and an excellent example.

FTLs aren’t grenadiers, they are element leaders and the only subordinates of the SLs. A squad leader does not have the authority to give orders to anyone else than the FTLs. The orders need to be passed down the chain of command. The SL shouldn’t even think about combat on soldier scale (that’s the FTL’s job), but on a scale in which the smallest movable unit is a fireteam (allowing them to make plans in less detail), and give the orders accordingly. Then the FTLs take those orders and fulfill them the best they can, adjusting them according to the situation on the ground. This same things apply with all orders whether it’s PLT to SL, SL to FTL or FTL to buddyteam.

The reason the whole squad is on the same radio channel is not for the fireteam members to start fulfilling the SL’s orders. It is for them to better know the context of the FTL’s orders and for them to be able to do contact reports to the whole squad.

Hey guys this is my opinion on how the Squad should work and the reason why I give my opinion is because the restructure of the squads was my idea. Here is a link to my proposal. The last statement in this proposal in bold and underlined is a quote from one of the links at the bottom of the document.

I think this quote below is exactly how it should work.

The second part of this statement is also correct:

This statement in particular is completely wrong:

FTL’s can be given orders and left to fulfil them, individuals can be given orders by the SL. The SL is THE AUTHORITY in the squad everything is his responsibility but like Freghar has said that authority and responsibility is off loaded onto the FTL’s when needed. i.e. "Alpha 1 provide overwatch for Alpha 2 as they cross the road" this is the SL given his orders to the whole of A1 but it is the FTL in A1’s responsibility to make it happen so he has the authority to order his FT members to certain places etc.

The fireteam is generally used as a subdivision of the section for fire and manoeuvre rather than as a separate unit in its own right.

I might have communicated that in a way that it is really easy to misunderstand. Yes, the SL commands and has authority over both fireteams and thus indirectly commands everyone in the squad, but every command should go through FTLs, because they are responsible on how their fireteam fulfills the order. That is why SLs shouldn’t (and could be argued in some cases to not have the authority to) give orders to anyone except the FTLs. This is how chain of command works, supposing there are leadership roles under SL.

I think Dachi and Arba did a great job making a mission interesting and tense with very little fighting compared to our standard operations. Watching the enemy drive right past the team trying to get in contact with the local was heartraising and you really felt like any moment this could go wrong.

The quick firefight in the woods with the flares was also nice to just keep the beat up when it was beginning to lack. Nice pacing overall.

For leadership I think Dulabu did an amazing job leading A1. Straight up, quick orders pointing out exactly where and what he wanted his guys to do. But by now I think that’s to be expected when joining his team.

Churizo also did a lovely job leading Alpha. As Berenton stated I would have liked a little bit more information on what was going on. In a mission with more fighting and higher pacing this could have been deadly, but then again: I could have asked for it.

The only thing I was dissapointed in was that we only sent 1 fireteam into the town at the local contact when we had 31 players. Bravo and Charlie looked to be in a totally ineffective position as they were about double the distance away from the town compared to A1 (me) and I felt like we were not gonna be able to do much if stuff went south.

I think it would have been better to send whole of Alpha into the town to have more firepower on the spot and move Bravo and Charlie closer to provide overwatch.

Other than that lovely mission. I got killed by AT fired from about 50m away which you can argue was a bit unrealistic - but that’s probably just me being butthurt <3

Lovely mission from Arba and Dachi, thanks for the amazing atmosphere you created!

Regarding the communications I did my best to keep everyone updated but you have to understand that it is quite difficult for me to go around during a firefight to go tell everyone that Bravo decided to push up, even more so when I’m laying face down with more holes than Swiss cheese. Between situations I tried to give small briefing so that everyone had a rough idea of where enemies and friendlies would be.

When we encountered blue on blue I don’t really know what went wrong. I called out on long range that Alpha had a flanking element and Charlie should exercise caution and on squad radio I called out that Charlie was flanking aswell.

When moving into the town to meet the contact I chose to only bring yellow (2 guys) because I wanted to move light and fast, this worked out quite well even if it was a bit boring for the guys on the hills. Also I first went up to the wrong church, causing us to have to move all to way to the other side of the village, if I had known this in advance I could’ve maneuvered the entire squad to the opposite side.

Lastly I want to thank everyone in Alpha for exemplary behavior (with some hilarious moments) and good all-round performance.

My point of view as PLT Lead:

As for not sending a lot of people in the town I totally support that decision, we wanted to limit exposure as much as possible hence the very small team that has been sent.

Charlie and Bravo were positioned as best as we could.

Hey guys thanks for all the nice feedback we will take on board mission making errors for the next one.

My problem with your opinion here is that it is confusing and leads to members treating the Fire Teams as separate elements/units. So instead of saying the SL has no authority over individuals within his squad (which is not true) say that the SL should avoid micro management and used his subordinates i.e. FTL’s to fulfil his will it sounds like the same thing but it is not.

If the need arises however for micromanagement, for example on setup of an ambush the SL is well within his right to place every person individually he does not have to go through the FTL because the chain of command you talk about is different i.e. tactical chain of command the passage of authority (this is the squad I am in charge, FTL’s take care of your guys and do what I ask) and then administrative chain of command i.e. Plt to SL where orders pass from element to element and you can not circumvent the chain of command.

What I am trying to say is that chain of command with a platoon or with a company for example is very different to the chain of command within a Squad as this is the lowest level of command the SL. FTL’s are there to aid the SL.

Intel Gathered from the mission, our intelligence guys are looking at the attached survey report and mapping now.


That is basically saying that FTLs are not in charge of their fireteams and our smallest "independent" unit is a squad.

The SL can (if they so choose) also give really detailed orders on what they want done and how if the situation so dictates, but instead of telling ie. fire positions individually, they can say "Alpha one, I want your guys there, there and there." etc.

I do not understand what is confusing in any of this. In my opinion chain of command should not be broken, because breaking it results in confusion. Think of a situation where SL gives a fireteam an order and FTL organizes who does what. Then the SL breaks the chain of command and tells one or two of the fireteam members to do something else or to position them somewhere else. Now the FTL who’s supposed to be accountable of his fireteam and take care of them doesn’t anymore know where his men are and what they’re doing. In bad cases the initial orders will be left unfulfilled, because the FTL assumed the men were fulfilling the orders he gave them. In a worst case scenario the remainder of the fireteam will be wiped out because the FTL assumed he had four men in defensive positions while he actually only had two. All this can be averted by just following the chain of command and everything will get done.

Let’s drop the fireteam discussion out of war stories please. :slight_smile:

Yes the smallest unit is a Squad the smallest unit should never be a FT, but that does not stop the FTL’s from being in command of a FT.

Yes this is exactly how it works but in previous statements you have said the SL can not give detailed orders where he would order individuals/buddy teams to perform a task.

What is confusing is your lack of understanding that the Fireteam is not an element in it’s own right and that our smallest elements are Squads. FTL’s are like the 2iC of the Squad i.e. second in command so have some authority and can be delegated to perform tasks but that are not in command hence your chain of command statement not being correct.

This does not make sense if an SL gives a fireteam a task then the FTL of that fireteam organises, this is the SL delegating this a task to him, I have no where said that the SL can not give orders to the FTL to be fulfilled, what I have said is that it is wrong to say the SL has no Authority over FT members.

No all members of the squad as explained are directly under his command, the FTL’s have have delegated command (Very Different).

No not really because the SL knows it is the FTL’s job to look after his fireteam because it is a job he has given him therefore if he wants to task members of that fireteam he does it over the radio getting confirmation that the FTL has understood. Your example would only happen with very poor communications. Plus the idea is not that the SL will need to get that involved all the time only that he can if he needs too.

All of this is about working closer and better under an SL and not moving around doing your own thing as a 4 man rambo fireteam.

Sorry missed this haha was typing, it is not really a discussion anyway we implemented this play style months ago we are supposed to be enforcing it not counteracting it, at least not until you have submitted a brainstorm about changing it.

Great news guys I gave [user avatar=“” name=“Shakan”]17713582[/user] the CNTR file from the mission, hopefully it is salvaged and up for replay soon :-d :thumb:

Watching the video back there was a discussion about the wild card and it’s use at around 42:44 in my video, I believe it was Churizo that pointed out to [user avatar=“” name=“Lastmikoi”]17128302[/user] that it is only to be used in extreme situations. This is correct if you are not sure it has been published in the community announcements here and is also published in game.

It says you can call in at any time but the last sentence is the caveat. So we are all on the same page.