Coop - Lit Candle

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First things first, I’d like to say I enjoyed playing with you guys tonight. Lads in FT with me were very good. We died a lot and I don’t think we could do a lot better except buy some x-ray. Unfortunately there was a lot of dying inside forest and through the trees. Chernarus. :frowning:

Somewhat we need to improve our defensive supporting positions. We don’t mutually support each other as much as we could and my FT carries a lot of blame not to prevent assault on FT Blue which got assaulted by technicals. Here is a nice document that explains mutually supporting defensive positions (De Puy) - Temporarily Disabled

I liked the mission, conceptually it was very well thought. It wasn’t all shooting and that gave us enough time to prepare. Though we prepared a lot at the base too, without wanting it. :smiley:

Food for thought - guys think about what to do with Chernarus and other A2 maps with lot of woods. How to improve AI, how to improve missions on that maps as players dying in large numbers even when we actually do a lot of stuff by the book, isn’t cool.

Convoy - we need to do better. But ok, it will come with practice I guess.

It’s the fun little diversions that make life worth living!

It never seizes to amaze me how good we are at convoys.

We are worse than AI, hahahaha.

Just some thoughts, point of view, questions and ideas and off topic connected to mission and game play, maybe little bit chaotic but it s long… :smiley: This was my third mission - so im just like "thinking around" learning by errors, i do not mean it like judging good/bad. Do not have enough experience with team gaming and ACE3.

Technical probléms:
Mines were not working from some reason (maybe they were just lucky and did not drive over single one + do not know how the AI is good on spotting mines but they can make it sometimes), next time could be fine to try combine more types and lay more mines to be sure that it will work, if we do not know forward what types of vehicles or EI will come. (IEDs, charges, AP mines, AT mines, +road covered by RPGs for sure) rpg s 18, 26 are very light weapons for "use and throw". Everybody can wear them.
In real conflicts, i think, you také what you need and the speciality does not matter so much, if you are trained. Especially for non regular army it s common. (it lowers the team members importance but highers the team surviveability and action performance)
Example: If enemy knows we are coming with tanks, why should také only one or two rpgs and believe that mines will work. If something fails, they know plan B and plan C where/when to run away if everything fails.
It s Ok, to have hidden weapon stack, backpacks with weapons, or have UAZ, Humwee …car 100m close with weapons to stay light for action, but to be well equiped for fight and deal with unexpected. I believe soldiers simply také everything they will need to car or field backpacks, but in action they put the big ones on ground to stay quick, and just use what they need.
I think we had lack of rpgs, and the hit rate of non guided launchers is ussaly very small if is the vehicle moving.

When the pick-ups passed the mines, they were higher above us and could shoot us nicely. I tried to throw granade, but got it almost with first shot. Killed while trying to throw granade…
Question: If im using the granade yet but get shot during that, will the granade in ACE3 explode on my body or nothing happens ? Im asking to be sure, never happened to me before and do not know if it s possible in ACE.

At the beginning of game I just got 2 magazines for MG with 2x100 bullets, it s a little low, i always feel like i need 300 bullets or more for whatever gun i use, especially with no optic zoom (on the other way, i would not later také 3 AT mines or had to move it there and back or just change backpack for a moment)
(i just have the habit from eden/single gaming to have 350 bullets, 4-10x RGNs, 4x-6x smokes, 4 medikits, RPG rockets like 6 per my AI team - in this way i think whatever comes i would be able to deal with it)

  • for my MG there was no one compatible scope (but it s not big issue if I have enough ammo)

  • AI was very good in shooting and it keeped me on the ground all the game, was affraid to move/peak

  • in last tree games it looks like the AI has very good aiming accuracy/aiming shake (this game i got shot almost by first bullet from MG mounted on car, game before i got shot very good too in the bunker position but on the other side in the prison camp the AI was deaf - they did not react at all, just did shoot few of them to back even when the firefight was close, they did not move meter or changed stance towards shooting sound, steps, opening doors - simply no action)

  • I do not know how it is on server but in eden it is possible to configure the dynamic simulation distance and spot distance for AI on the players view distance. So, if player has objects view distance like 1500m the AI can see player on 1500m if it is 350m it s the same for the AI. It s not just about to see throught trees. (but for this problém is good to have lower accuracy for AI - it gives more time to respond - také action before getting shot.

  • i tried yestarday Bcombat (i do not use ace/ace intro as it makes me tech problems with loading saved games) (i used that too on WLA:amalgamation all the time, very very good opposite basic AI) , ASR+RHS config, ASR+ ai accuracy fix, V com AI, vanilla. Test: two vs too rifle squads with mp5 on short distance fight 100 to 0 meters close, with the same equipment and was spectating the firefights repeatedly to see what are they doing)

I think that vanilla basic AI, has weakness that they do not know about other teams around, do not react appropriately on sound of firefight and steps, they are like nothing is going on and are piling up on dead friends bodies. Use some smokes. (there is a mod "HETMAN" artificial leader even with pdf manual, do not have idea if it can help anyhow)
But with AI mods it s ussaly harder to fith with 3 teams with 4 soldiers than 1x12 squad as teams cooperate/react on firefight and move independently.

Bcombat used better cover and was reacting well, good use of granades. No smokes. Good teams cooperation.

ASR+RHS config - very good, but no smoke use, very accurate shooting. good granade handling, flanking and attacking. Saw some problém with AI healing themselves.

V Com AI - very bad in shooting even when close, maybe little bit worse taking cover than ASR, sometimes they use smokes, granades are used well.

ASR+RHS config + ai accuracy fix (mod) - i think this is the winner of the IAs. Used 100% skill + colonel rank. There stayed the good movement and quick commanding but the AI accuracy fix lowered the AI accuracy wery well and made it possible to have some reaction time to respond on ememy fire.

I used all the mods extensively for xxx hours, but never tested them like this till now. (very simplified testing of AI) (I used eden with vanilla to make simple mission, everybody same equipment, saved this mission, tryied, exit game, click on mod to test, test in editor, do NOT save, exit game… repeat)

When I used all of them in one time + ACE3 i had some problems like, artillery was not working, jets not fliyng… So i was trying find the best one for my purposes. ASR+AI accuracy fix.

BTW, it was good game and just was surprised why i can not get from car and nobody is around :smiley:

[user avatar=“” name=“Mother”]18447842[/user] - the reason we have vanilla now is control. ASR AI is good but GM had issues controlling it and it was very very aggressive.

Yeah, I think the vanilla really do not act on itself much. ASR they have the radio contact distance, so they, lets say, "share informations" and act together. In the Zeus organize the game a live player, so the lead is not needed or is even unwanted then.
Maybe the ASR would stop cooperating if the radio contact distance would be set as "0" meters. I think even without the coordinating they would be better then vanilla. But the accuracy of shooting is too much (without the accuracy fix for me) i think in all 3 last games. Maybe little bit unrealistic. It can také hundreds of bullets to really get somebody in real combat without scope on more like 200m (just watched a lot of videos on youtube from fighting in middle east and UA… and the AI shoot all the time like snipers :smiley: ).
The AI should shoot ± as well as the players to stay challanging but not be over head. The problém is the general sklil - if it is too low they are slow and badly commanding. So it s preferable to has it on 100% but it s make them shoot well too. I do not know if it is possible to change the accuracy only like in singleplayer mission on server too. When im playing solo, im always trying to get them shoot not too well but appropriately somehow like 30-40% to not have mine own AIs too unable to hit a tank with rpg.

Does the AI on server react on the suppresive fire ? (thx to ACE ?) Or does basic AI have yet build in reaction on suppression ?

Very nice feedback Mother.

I’ll try to answer a few of your questions the best I can.

The reason the mines were not working was because these were anti tank mines where the technicals (Cars) we came in contact with were not heavy enough to set them off (I’m pretty sure that was the reason). Normally it is not even necessary to use AT or mines against these contacts as they can easily be delt with by small arms.

The debate about what gear we should have and use in missions is one that has been going on since the start of the community and hopefully it will never end as it keeps us moving forward :wink:

At the moment we have a pretty simple gear selection. AT guys have AT launchers, Medics have medic stuff and AR have big guns with big belts. Your loadout normally follows your role very strictly.

You can argue that the most efficient would be to give everyone AT if we know that we are fighting a ton of armor or to give everyone more ammo if we are going against infantry. I do agree with you that would make sense in a matter of combat efficiency. Especially if we are in a defensive position were stamina is not very important like this mission.

The problem is that it has some impact on the fun. There’s a very fine balance between what makes sense and what is fun in Arma. The very important aspect of having the loadouts specified to each role is that it forces teamwork. The fireteam is dependant on every member.

Same thing comes when you run out of bullets as an AR. You might only have 200 bullets on you, but your AAR has at least an extra belt for you. He also has extra grenades and smokes. Every man in your fireteam has as much right to the ammo in your puckets as you do yourself as long as everybody has some. You don’t have 300 bullets. You have 1200 which you are sharing with your fireteam (probably more, I don’t know the specific :idea: ).

Also if we come back to the AT thing: Normally if we expect higher amounts of enemy armour we will use a MAT team (medium anti tank team). This is 3 guys in a team who has a shit ton of anti tank stuff.

I think this was a unlucky mission. The setting was very nice and the immersion was beautifull but the AI was relentless. I’m looking forward to seeing the difference on a non Arma 2 map, but I also think that it is important that Zeus takes it very easy while we are using these AI settings. Start with small firefights and work your way up.

About the AI systems you are suggesting I would strongly suggest you make a thread about that in the brainstorming forums. I’m sure there’s a lot of people who are up for discussing and testing on the topic.

In the same forum you can find a lot of topic about gear and unit ideas too.

Again thanks for the feedback Mother. It is very important that new players express their ideas and feelings. This really helps us in seeing things from a new perspective!

Trust me, we have done millions of tests (literally) with all possible ASR AI settings as well as vanilla settings, including radio distance 0 and all possible aiming accuracy and aiming shake with ASR AI and vanilla AI.

The current vanilla AI has the lowest reasonable accuracy/shake it can, before being too dumb to hit anything even in CQB, which is currently 0.2 (20% of what the AI is capable). We used to have it much higher with ASR AI, but because the low accuracy also makes the AI suppress a lot more (shoot more bullets), it was sensible to reduce it to this low value that goes below to what even most "public" servers use. Players are many times more accurate than the AI as it stands.

The tests I’ve done on the vanilla AI show that if you’re getting killed in CQB, it’s due to slow reaction times (again, tuned to ~ player reaction time, as a result of complains that the AI is too slow in "rotating" in CQB, but when it does, it single-shots people, … like it used to be with ASR AI). Getting killed at longer range is the result of not being in cover, as the AI shoots so many bullets around players that even with the super low accuracy, a stray bullet will eventually hit. The average number of seconds at 300m of flat ground and a single target soldier versus a 4-man team was ~17, that is it took 17 seconds of 4 AI shooting at a 300m distant target for them to actually kill it, on average. Even I can do it in 2-3 shots.

The AI is currently tuned to shoot and aim much worse than players, since that is what the players of this community are used to (going against vastly numerous hostile force) and I have gone to some lengths to make it deterministic, for example - arma 3 cfgaiskill testing - Google Kalkylark (all 10 pages) is the CfgAISkill tuning I needed to do.

Not saying that the current AI skill values are final, we may reduce spotDistance a bit, to make the AI feel even less challenging at a distance, only returning fire and not opening it unless the players come closer than ~300m, partially to counteract buggy maps.

My point of view as Dagger commander:

Enjoy the convoyeering profesionnalism, and lackluster capability of differentiating right from left as well as miscounting hundreds of degrees.

Lower-resolution variants are being uploaded as I write this post, so if you’re unable to watch in 1080p, wait a day or two for the lower res variants to be available in the media player.

As a side note now that’s I’m re-watching my recording, I think it’s very confusing to use Alpha and Bravo when the markers show Anton and Boris. We really should stick to one.

I actually cherished the moment when we met on some defensive line on the edge of the forest and watching you guys (dagger) preparing yourselves by driving backwards to the treeline, … I don’t know, there was something cinematic in that, can’t really explain it.

Just few points I forgot to mention in the debrief.

I remember us doing ambushes before so I hoped this concept is somewhat better understood. Ambush should be quick surprise attack with high volume of fire the on enemy units followed by an almost immediate rapid disengagement. I will try to make this bit more obvious in the future.

Please read the OPORD next time before the mission so there wouldn’t be confusion about what obj one should be covering. At beginning there was talk about OBJ Zulu which was assigned to a friendly unit and not listed among your tasks. Sierra marked the ambush spot. Vehicle resupply points were clearly marked on the map.

AT mines were ineffective against technicals by design. They are designed for armored vehicles. They were there for the tank platoon (Bradleys due to technical problems. Mines would’ve still worked). Satchel and entrenching tools for every second AT guy (1 in 1 squad) were there to help dealing with normal contacts and entrenching your positions. Small arms fire, satchels, BMP-3 and AT weapons should be plenty for technicals. Razor wire for the Yankee positions flanks to secure it from infantry or any similar use.

Position markers on the map are there for rough positioning. It doesn’t mean one has to sit on the specific grid coordinate. So if you think the position is bad see if there a better position close to it. As the PTL very well did in the final line. Part of defending is conducting counter-attacks and attempting to take back the line lost. So is holding positions that are good for the larger unit not necessarily perfect for the smaller one if possible.

I don’t think mortar support was ever even used before it started firing by itself for self-defense.

Preparations took unnecessarily long time. It took around 25 minutes to get outside the base area (not including the Benny Hill style convoy hi-jinx) whilst mission statement ordered 2nd platoon to be ready to defend 30 minutes in. If a time restriction is proposed in the mission one should do their best to meet it.

Main unexpected part was how easily AI saw trough the trees and managed to mow down players at times. This is apparently a thing with Arma2 maps which I was not aware of. The balance here was odd. Either players were effective of they got wiped. Wipes seemed to happen mostly when unexpected circumstances occurred or when in a firefight inside the forest which is perfectly understandable.

This mission needed 2 GM-s. I was almost always hectically busy and separation between the roles of GM and company command would’ve helped role-play, larger unit simulation and remote controlling enemy.

Most of these things are very small but they start piling up and start affecting the game experience asymmetrically to their size. Still at the end of the day it is up to the one who throws the ball to make sure the person can catch it. I hope most had an enjoyable experience and I will try to work on it in future.

I don’t know about others but if we name it Anton and Boris or Lancer and Temple or whatever then I get mixed up which is what. Can we just stick with Alpha and Bravo for clarity’s sake? It annoys the living shit out of me seeing other names all the time.

Same goes for Dagger/Nightbird/Wildcat/Thunder
Medved with MDVD1 as shortcut. I am sorry but I refuse to say this during the mission because I can’t remember that.

I don’t know about others but if we name it Anton and Boris or Lancer and Temple or whatever then I get mixed up which is what. Can we just stick with Alpha and Bravo for clarity’s sake? It annoys the living shit out of me seeing other names all the time.

Same goes for Dagger/Nightbird/Wildcat/Thunder
Medved with MDVD1 as shortcut. I am sorry but I refuse to say this during the mission because I can’t remember that.[/quote]
Please open a brainstorming thread so that I can support this magnificent and very much needed idea.