Coop - Blue Dawn

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It was very nice to see allied units being used in such a way that did not slow down the game for everyone, although it is a bit much to expect players to identify friendlies and enemies correctly when there are no pictures in the briefing.

In response to the discussion about taking prisoners I think it didn’t work out as well as was hoped for two reasons. Firstly our past experiences in missions have trained us to treat anyone with a gun who is not explicitly an ally as an enemy who must be killed before they kill you. Secondly having not used the stun grenades in the past most players have no idea how effective they are and are unlikely to trust them to incapacitate an enemy. One way to convince people would be to explicitly mention in the OPORD and briefing that this is a mission requirement and that the stun grenades will stun an enemy for a certain amount of time. Otherwise players are likely to make it a low priority when they are taking fire from more than one source and it is easier to kill anyone who is armed and shooting you rather than take the risky option of using equipment you have not used before.

Thanks again for a mission that was a nice challenge Arba!

Lovely mission, enjoyed it for many reasons.

Having mechanised squads worked well (except for Alpha running over barbed wire but that’s okay). Coordination wasn’t always the best between Dagger and Bravo but as our dear [user avatar=“” name=“Churizo”]3749902[/user] said during the debrief Bravo covered Dagger and vice versa. It was a shame Dagger got destroyed before the very end since it could have offered a significant support to the infantry.
On this I would like to ask if it’s possible to ensure Dagger always has a vehicle at every reinsertion, this time we had 3 (Demo)Gorgons but Alpha took one. I know it can reduce the amount of attention Dagger crew pays to protect its vehicles but the first one survived for almost two hours straight and got destroyed by some unknown bug or hidden nuclear bomb.
I think we could also separate Dagger and Reaper from PLT NET since they don’t have to communicate directly with every infantry element and it could reduce drastically the amount of communication Dagger commander has to deal with, which is enough already without the messy long range comms. Communicating with an infantry squad to provide support (like what happened in this mission) is possible via short range.
Also how can Dagger get rearmed and get soft technical repairing (i.e. to the fuel tank)?

On the civilians matter, once again I agree with Teddy. Infantry was too busy staying alive to consider civs as priority. From my experience if you want us to deal with civilians properly you should put less stress on the battlefield otherwise we’ll just behave as tonight: ignore who’s running around panicked and kill everyone who we consider a threat instantly.

All in all having Dagger and Bravo cooperating was great, we still have to improve but that’s definitely the way to go. Thanks to my fellows in Dagger’s crew for the awesome night and of course thanks to our charming game master [user avatar=“” name=“Arba”]17914993[/user] for this mission. Had a great fun!

P.S. Really [user avatar=“” name=“Arba”]17914993[/user] ???

Loved the mission, thanks [user avatar=“” name=“Arba”]17914993[/user] ! Like I said in the debrief, as platoon it is always nice to hear what squads want to do themselfs, since they ussually have eyes on opportunities that platoon has no idea excists. As I was a passenger of the last vehicle I had no idea what exactly happend in the first town. I heard a vehicle blow up and I assumed it was RACS their truck getting blown up by an ambush. Immediatly people were scattered all over the place so I really appreciated both [user avatar=“” name=“Stuka”]17454636[/user] and [user avatar=“” name=“Churizo”]3749902[/user] their innitiative for a plan of approach.

I would like to know from element leaders how they think my platoon leading could be better. In this case I tried to talk as less as possible to the elements myself unless they needed a plan and instead I tried to make the elements talk to me for whatever they wanted. I really appreciate any feedback, you can also send it to me in a PM :slight_smile:

Other than the mass murder on civilians, great job team!

Had a great time during the mission Arba, many thanks! I loved the ambush on the RACS, very cinematic. Noticing it first hand in Vic 1 was awesome. I was looking forward to the civilian management part when I read the Opord but I can only concur with what’s been said above: they were too lethal ([user avatar=“” name=“Clarke”]11341464[/user] knows). They idea proposed during debrief of giving them handguns instead of rifles might work.

I loved functioning as a mechanized infantry squad (at least in the first town before I drove over barbed wire). Moving through the streets with the AFV worked very well with the fireteams clearing ahead of it & the vehicle bringing the fire power for support.
During the training on tuesday, [user avatar=“” name=“Churizo”]3749902[/user] suggested to have a rifleman & an AAR to man the vehicle but I chose to drive myself with the medic as gunner. I thought it worked very well, keeping both fireteams whole & keeping the medic safe. I found it also provided more reactivity in manoeuvering the vehicle (no communications needed) & it kept someone from getting too bored solely driving the AFV around. Hopefully [user avatar=“” name=“Shails”]13750996[/user] had fun shooting stuff. I realize this is not how you would do it in real life but it made sense gameplay-wise.

For your feedback [user avatar=“” name=“Racoon”]3891983[/user] :
I thought you did a good job & granted squads a lot of freedom to take the objectives. I believe it was a sensible approach considering how difficult it was to read the terrain from the map (for me at least). The platoon net was kept fairly tight.
For improvements, as I told you in game, information on the plan of action sometimes came a bit late because you didn’t want to give too much information all at once. Things turned out fine but it led to a few misunderstandings when events were unfolding faster than your instructions came through.
All in all it was well done!

Last note, sorry [user avatar=“” name=“Teddy”]9240990[/user] for running you over…

[user avatar=“” name=“Teddy”]9240990[/user] Briefing stated: "You are not to bring any harm to the unarmed populace and should use deadly force only if absolutely necessary. Less then lethal options are provided. To prevent any retalliation by RACS forces, you are to bring any incapacitated combatants and non-uniformed individuals to holding station at FOB Ramah located in the town of Modesta."
When thinking about what to give to non uniformed combatants, I thought that in a country like SSR many civilians would have heavy arms like AK-s in their possession. That’s why I gave half of them AK-s and half Mosins. In my opinion, that decision was good logical-wise, but not gameplay-wise as it forced you to quickly deal with any combatants and not try to capture any prisoners. I will have it in mind in the future. I understand everything you said and agree with it. But still, do you think that images like this would look good in international news? :wink:

Regarding AA. I do not think I made bad decisions there. There was a total of 4 AA trucks in the game.

The one on the left crashed into a barbed wire and destroyed itself before it fired a single shot. One in the middle destroyed DGR after it pushed far into town. I was not controlling that AI. If you watch CNTR you can see that it was stationed at the end of the city and was surrounded by many stationary vehicles (props). Those props were engaged by DGR, but AI was somehow missed. It moved from that location on its own and hid in a forest from where it had clear view on the road beneath it. Pretty smart move, if you ask me. I don’t feel bad that it destroyed you because up to that point you engaged and destroyed several BTR-s and BMP-s. You also survived an encounter with a T-72, which everybody forgot about even though it was the first thing that was spotted in the city, and which sneaked up on you. Your luck had to run out sometime. Third AA was one on the elevated position by the broadcasting station East of the city. I also do not think I did something wrong using it. That position had excellent view over the whole city and was ignored by players, even though it was mentioned in the OPORD. I don’t think you did anything wrong not attacking it, don’t think that I’m criticising anyone. It was a side objective which would give you some benefits if you captured it and now there will be some consequences because it was left in enemy hands. But, it would be silly to expect that anyone up there would remain there and not try to stop you in any way they can. Including firing from an AA gun (which I was controlling and was careful not to kill anyone). Fourth AA was a fair distance from the city and was there solely to make sure RPR wouldn’t go where it wasn’t supposed to.

[user avatar=“” name=“Henrik”]8061610[/user] I don’t see the issue with spawning those vehicles. OPORD stated that the presence of medium and heavy armour is likely. Out of those three vehicles spawned, two were BTR-70s (hardly a challenge for a Gorgon) and one was BMP-1 which you couldn’t even aim with. One BTR went to the town of Obregan where it did some damage to infantry, other BTR and BMP were directly controlled by me and you didn’t have any issues dealing with them.

What I didn’t like at all was you remaining in Obregan for so long while arty shells were raining down on you! I do not understand that decision. PLT was informed of arty fire and was told to quickly deal with it. Even if you didn’t have enough men to do that at that time, it would be smarter to pull back and wait for reinforcements. There was almost a whole squad in Obregan trying to fix a Gorgon that whole time. Lives of a whole squad should be more important then a Gorgon. I didn’t want to punish that, but it didn’t seem like a good idea to me. Even after you moved out of Obregan, you basically made a camp just west of it. After a while, arty started to fire again and it took a while for you to move. Also, after you moved, you basically avoided the arty base in the middle, which later placed you in between Bagango to the North and that base to the South. But, you paid for that mistake with a RPR when a DShK gun in that base took it down.

There was an interesting situation in a small villa just outside Bagango. I’m sad you didn’t capture anyone there because that was a private residence of SSR president, which you killed. That would give you some leverage in the future mission. I hoped that the presence of better a car and people dressed in suits would talk of some importance, but you spared no bullets :wink: . BTR controlled by me attacked that villa after it was captured, but even though you didn’t have any AT you didn’t try to take cover or pull back. There were several players crouching in the middle of the villa yard shooting 5.56 mm guns at me. For several minutes, not even trying to take cover when BTR was looking at you! I had to leave with the BTR because I didn’t want to purposefully kill anyone, which you made waaaay too easy for me to do.

Last thing, I don’t think pulling out of the city was done good. Most of CNTO left while one fireteam was still in heavy firefights with remaining enemy troops by the large hotel.

And some pictures after this wall of text:

Executing a soldier which surrendered, laid down his arms and was following all orders:

Full blown blue on blue battle between two fireteams:

Stealing some poor bastards car (but it’s OK since he’s probably dead):

Also. [user avatar=“” name=“Racoon”]3891983[/user] I don’t want for you to consider anything I wrote here as some attack on you. I think you’re doing a pretty good job as PLT and I’m always glad to see you leading.

Pretty good mission ! Happy that I did not died and could play it all way long :slight_smile:

Good things:

  • very well choosen map and areas on map
  • liked half-cloudy weather and fog (if it was not my OVD)
  • bases and entranchements were very cool
  • greate work with the BTR’s, it was exciting fun :slight_smile:
  • the attacking and retreating BTR’s were a lot realistic and had feeling like they are smartly used

(the IFVs and APCs can just drive the Infantery Squads to enemy positions on danger close distance, so infantery does not need run in open fields and be vulnerable to snipers, MGs… So the BTRs, BMPs… can drive enemy Squads right in front of your house for example and disembark there. It s one of army used tactics.)

  • did like that we had DAGGER, it s cool to have some armour with us and more enemy assets can be deployed so it s getting exciting
  • did like the idea with the Stun/Flashbang granades and zip-ties
    (Note: Concussion granades are Lethal. but do not provide fragments like normal granades ! it s not the same like Stun/Flashbang/CS gas granades which are non-lethal)
    Grenade - Wikipedia
    (there is like 7-8 basic types of different granades in the mod-pack + their modifications, and it quite a cool)

— The tank on the field(? saw just 1 in Op) was Maybe (?) out of OVD or was maybe in Dynamic Simulation when DAGGER tried to wake him up on about 800m (?) by some shots (so ppl tought it s knocked off yet)
— The one surrendered enemy in front of pink villa was shot not by us but by the friendly AI’s running around (he was not (probably) zip-tied)

— problém with the armed civilians is that if you stun them and you are slow you die, nobody wants risk it + what if they are not stunned by it… The problém too is not big choice for MM to give them some non-lethal weapons. Maybe some knifes, incendary or incendiary granades, bats, smokes, practise granades, or some non so lethal things could make it more non-deadly for us to try arrest them but still exciting. (nobody want be on respawn)
(can imagine having some full Op like this)
— good thing, what I saw on public server was, that before any mortar attack, there was used a red smoke on the particular place, so you did knew you are targeted by enemy artillery, so ppl start running immediatelly or took cover at least (I think it s cool a lot use like a Zeus the effects like smokes or flares and so, only players have to know forward what it means)

(btw, once it s armed it s terrorist and not civilian :slight_smile: So we are heroes, becouse we eliminated bunch of them :smiley: )

— (General MM note/ideas for objectives): I think the first city was quite big, maybe it would be ok, to just make some house/position like a objective (did like the entranched hotel) instead need to clean house by house all city (mean: just go for the HQ/main objective)
— which lead to Obj. Markers are extremelly big on map, woudl be logical to have some Dot/Triangle/Square marker and color for it as you can not place on map tree huge Obj. markers next to each other as you than do not see anything + it have to be annoying for pilots)

I can’t speak for everyone but everyone I shot was holding a gun and in the middle of a war zone that wasn’t a great idea. If you wanted capturing armed locals to be a major part of a mission then that OPORD statement was not enough to stress the fact. As for the AA that seems like a fair use by the enemy.

As for the artillery/mortar you can hardly blame players for wanting to salvage a major asset like a Gorgon. Although you are right in that perhaps it would have been better to send everyone but a few guys out of the town and leave those few to try and repair the Gorgon. I think the people there must have thought it wasn’t such a terrible idea to stay a little while given friendly forces were entering the area… Also I do not understand why regrouping to the west of the city was such a terrible idea, it is what we are trained to do. If we are going to be chased by artillery wherever we go then I guess the only safe thing to do is move into the main city very quickly despite losses…

I just had a thought: we could have used the buildings in the base to practice the use of stun grenades and tying up enemies. A few guys could pretend to be the enemy and wait inside while not shooting back but saying things like "I’m still blind!" or "Not stunned anymore I can see you!". If we have this kind of objective again it might be useful to do this before hand.

The Stun M84 granades slightly injures you. You can bleed for arms, legs, you will be in pain. It s not just stunning you but it can slightly hurt you. You cold need bandage.

The most safe were the blue Fekel flashbang granades, but even with them occasionally you could be in pain or slightly injured. So, it s not totally harmless without consequences.

I tested for fun all of the granades what are in mod-pack.

It s easy in eden to také loadout and throw it on AIs or under your leg or close by.

The ACE M84 (not the RHS M84) is IIRC the only one with a script for the AI to turn away and act disoriented.

Maybe you should keep the friendly AI’s away from the combatants were supposed to capture, Because they wasted at least a few of them.
Also concussion grenades aren’t a very versatile less than lethal option, as you have to be far away from the enemy to be safe from the grenade yourself.

Would like to start off by saying thanks for the mission Arba, I really enjoyed it.

I do have some points in no particular order:

  1. Still not convinced that AA should be used against ground targets… Doesn’t make sense to me gameplay-wise or in any other way for that matter…
  2. Second I would like to congratulate everyone on the correct use of mechanized squads:
    We our vehicles due to:
    -Barbed wire
    -AA truck (yeah…)
    -Some weird bug
    This is a huge succes I think, our losses due to enemy fire have been reduced by a huge margin. On this point I have to tell you Arba that the fact that dagger wasn’t taken out earlier has absolutely nothing to do with luck, but everything to do with the way mechanized squads operate en how well it worked…
    3)The civvies seem to faster than military personnel
    4)Thank you everyone for the compliments on my training! You make me blush :stuck_out_tongue:

All in all I really enjoyed this op, Mechanized warfare is for me what Arma is all about and I hope we can get more of that in the next part of this series!

The AAs are used commonly against ground targets in real combat. Those vehicles mounted ZU AAs are used in the civil wars in Middle East. They simply use it against whatever it can destroy or suppress. It can penetrate 30mm of steel on 100m.

"""The ZU-23-2 was developed in the late 1950s. It was designed to engage low-flying targets at a range of 2.5 km as well as armoured vehicles at a range of two kilometres (km)"""

The same in ww II. it was for every side normal to use the AA guns against ground target. Autocannons were very affective in destroying buildings back than, 70 years ago.

But, yeah, in Arma it s very deadly if the aiming accuracy is above 20% :slight_smile: and it stays dangerous even when on that level, as it has huge fire rate.

Thank you everyone for your feedback, positive and especially negative. I will keep it in mind in the future.