Are we looting more than necessesary?

General Discussions
1

Hi guys

I’d like to address something that I personally find an issue in operations. In the past couple of ops I’ve notice a massive increase in the amount of enemy weapons (This mainly being AT) that is picked up through the missions. I have always thought that we only picked up weapons from dead enemies in ermergency situations like "We have used all our AT and there’s a T-72 coming towards us!" or "We’re out of ammo and there’s no way to fallback!". It’s not long ago I saw a guy running around with an Igla (AA launcher). Why would we take an Igla? Surely if the mission asked for AA we would have had it when we spawned in? Just yesterday in an all infantry mission I saw a guy from my fireteam running around with a RPG-18 though no AT-4s had been fired at all through the mission.

I really feel like what is stated in the Rules and Regulations has been bent quite a lot:

I haven’t been in an op the last two months where I wouldn’t see someone having enemy grenades, AT or even guns on them. It feels like we’re playing dayz at some points and it’s hard to explain why but it does annoy me quite a lot. Of course we should have the ability to pick up an AT launcher when we’re in a fucked situation but at the same time shouldn’t we trust our gamemaster enough to believe that he is aware what our equipment is and he’s going to make the mission in a fashion that suits the loadouts?

What I’m really getting at is what you guys think. Should we just loot everything we come by or should we stick to our loadouts?

2

[justify]I couldn’t agree more. Personally I am very much of the opinion that we shouldn’t pick up any non-native gear at all (meaning not part of our faction) unless in absolute and dire emergencies. This "just in case" looting of launchers is kinda ridiculous considering the fact that we’re playing with respawns most of the time.[/justify]

3

Definitely agree.

It’s a good thing we’re having an FTL qualification system in place. We should remind qualified FTLs they are responsible for their fireteams and when friendlies suddenly carry an RPG7 or a PKM for no reason, that’s a recipe for blue-on-blue. Obviously, unqualified FTLs should also get a reminder on how we play…

4

I’m of the opinion that it is ultimately up to the player who relieves the enemy of his equipment to weigh up the pros and the cons of what he is doing. In my opinion, CNTO should provide the player with the information he needs to make a good (virtual) life-decision and the FTL should intervene when necessary.

If the player and/or FTL determines looting to be necessary, rules and regulations shouldn’t limit this as that would reduce adaptability and the team’s ability to survive and thrive. But it seems some could use little education on when looting is necessary.

I’ve personally used an enemy RPG-28 and I can guarantee this was necessary, had I obeyed set regulations (and waited for permission) I probably would have been left as a sitting duck during T.72-time.

5

[user avatar=“https://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/5280795/avatar/small.1417982691.png” name=“Jeeves”]5280795[/user]

Please read the rule completely: [quote name=“Rule no. 42”]… Fireteam / Squad Leaders who plan to make use of enemy equipment need to inform Command about their intentions and get permission to do so in advance - not after the fact…[/quote]

6

Here’s the thing about this, alright.

Picking up enemy equipment is not a bad thing. The circumstances surrounding it determine whether it is good or bad.

Regardless of situation, picking up enemy launchers and/or enemy ballistic weaponry and/or jumping into enemy weapon emplacements should always be with the express permission of one’s superior. This permission is given from the Squad level down, and even Fireteam Leaders need to ask for this permission.

That is not to say that we expect you to let yourself die under extreme circumstances, but lets face the truth for a moment: Those rarely happen, and noone has a problem with such circumstances.

As a result of this hierarchy Fireteam Leaders are responsible for the (obvious) equipment of their fireteams. Any unsanctioned looting should be met with a scolding, as you are very much risking a blue on blue situation.
AARs are also responsible of keeping an eye open on this.

7

The profile of an RPG is very distinctive and makes me instantly recognize the enemy, so it could result in friendlyfire. The taking of enemy weapons, I agree is something that should be done in emergency situations only, and should be passed down the chain so everyone knows. Not to mention post-battle looting takes time and is distracting from the flow of the operation. Looting is fine if you’re a PMC or a guerilla and you have some free time but as a professional army we’ll have to tone it down a bit. I do think that AT units that have used their launcher should be able to pick up enemy rockets if they ask permission and it’s passed up the chain, especially if armour is going to be a problem later, or at least have their own launchers used in emmergencies only, with the majority of enemy armour being taken out by a specialized MAT team or Tank.

8

It’s not a matter of what faction we play as, Price. We could be any faction and these same ideas would apply.
The picking up or using of enemy weapons may only be done with the express permission of the Squad Leader/emergency permission of the Fire Team Leader in the interested of preventing weight creep and potential blue on blue scenarios.
It isn’t about the roleplay. It’s about how we organize our gameplay, which supersedes roleplay values.

9

I agree with you totally Kaleo but I believe like you said the FTL and AAR are ultimately responsible for there fire team members and when your fire team has used all its AT an FTL would know at this point to give the SL an ACE report so that command will be informed and therefore if necessary the Game Master will initiate resupply therefore reducing the need to ever loot enemies, although there are the rare occasions when like Jeeves points out there is no choice you either take the risk or die but hopefully while doing this you are telling your FTL who then Inform SL in best possible time. But even then in that example if you have run out of AT you should give the SL an ACE report and ask/inform him you will take enemy AT at the earliest opportunity due to enemy armour threat, that way when the situation arrives you have already gained permission and can pick up AT in an emergency knowing your FTL has done his job and informed everybody who needs to know.

Regards,
Dachi

10

And on the flip side I don’t think there is enough looting of friendly corpses. If your AT goes down? Grab it, even if your other AT is still up. FTL goes down? That under-slung is really handy. If someone is dead in your FT then you should loot everything you have the room to carry, even if it’s ammo you can’t use (AR ammo for example) someone will be able to. This can be, and has been, a literal life saver.

11

I don’t think anybody has touched the key question - why are people picking up enemy equipment? The straightforward answer would be; because it might come in handy! And more often than not, it does, which reinforces the behavior.

Another question would be - what do they gain by that? The, again straightforward, answer is; combat effectiveness! Killing a tank is better with 4 AT in a team than with just 1. Having the rocketpower ready now instead of whenever the HQ pleases is a big advantage. And it’s "free", why let it go to waste.

In fact, if 4 AT is better than 1, why don’t we give AT to everybody from the start? If 7.62mm is better than 5.56mm, why not give it to everybody? If sniper scopes, vectors, GPSes, tanks, attack choppers, … – exactly because it increases combat effectiveness (too much)!
By picking up useful enemy equipment, you essentially "absorb" a portion of their "effectiveness", giving you a potentially unfair/unplanned advantage.

I see two rough ways how to approach this;

  • Treat it as "the result justifies the means" and approach missions like sandboxes - using whatever resources necessary to accomplish the objectives. Got a sniper rifle? Good! A titan AT? Useful! Captured an Mi-24? Awesome, it’s not like Command gets helicopters for free! (Obviously, some limits from mission makers could control this.)
  • Keeping effectiveness under control is key to decent fun - blasting an enemy position with 6 GLs only to collect more grenades for said GLs has no tension. Therefore strict rules should apply.

The second point could go even further - is it okay to pick up friendly gear? Wouldn’t that illegally keep the effectiveness up where it should have been lowered by the enemy? What about dignity? "Screw dignity, we’ve got a fight to win!" – but then you might as well use that empty Mi-24 over there.

In my opinion, fireteam/squad leaders should aim to keep the effectiveness balanced and authorize/deny based on that - lost an AT? Allow someone else to pick an enemy one up. Under fire from an enemy tank? Survive! (And pick that AT over there.) Found a sniper rifle on an urban mission? Unlikely to be a huge advantage, leave it be. Found it on yesterday’s mission? The orders don’t justify a dedicated sniper role, leave it be.

In general, I would say - use enemy/friendly gear where it make sense, but don’t make your playstyle about collecting gear. Arma is not Diablo/WoW/Baldur’s Gate/… :slight_smile:

12

I think all the given answers were preaching to the same church, except Goat, who had a point on his own for friendly looting +1, where the guideline is clear and says, loot valuable assets from the friendly fallen, i.e. those assets were already given to our friendly side.
For enemy looting, in the end it’s as simple as the following:

  • If there is no imminent threat, always ask your FTL for permission to loot equipment, he will convey the request up the ladder and an informed response will come back, that usually will have taken into account most elements (game balance, risk vs. gain). There is no urge to act and as a member of the hierarchy, you accept a decision which has been made under no pressure by your commanding officers. That is your part of the roleplay to simply accept this.
  • If you are immediately threatened, take a decision to your own discretion, it is like deciding to shoot on enemies although the ROE is weapons hold. You have to be able to decide that this T-72 is a threat to your Squad, Fire Team or yourself and use the first RPG which comes in handy. But, I would like to say, that usually, you will have those split seconds to quickly ask at least your FTL for permission.

TD;LR : * If not in danger, ask for permission up the rank , * If in immediate danger, act accordingly and discuss later.

13

We - that being the JrNCO’s and above as well as several of the Specialists - have discussed this very topic for literal HOURS. I frankly cannot emphasize well enough how dead we beat this horse. We beat it dead², that’s how bad it got. It took multiple NCO meetings. Clarke was ready to throttle us nearing the end and I was begging for mercy.

In the end, we came to the rules we have. Believe me when I say that on this topic I am quite sure we’ve exhausted every possible way to think about this. Every one of them. Consider that ego if you want to, but I stand by that statement.

I appreciate everyone’s forward thinking and willingness to really put thought into a topic that was tough enough to result in groans of agony from NCO’s at the mere mention of it. However, the rule isn’t going to change, and we (or at least I) will continue to enforce it for the greater enjoyment of all. SOCKS

14

Here’s the official gif-protocol of said meeting:

15

See my problem isn’t the rule. I mention the rule in my post which I do because I think it’s leaning towards the idea of only picking up enemy weapons in emergency situations. The rule is fine except that it can be bent alot. It mainly states that you should call your higher when picking up an enemy weapon which I think we all can completely agree with.

When that is said the main question here is when are you just looting for the reason "it might come in handy" or when are you actually taking something that will save your life? And I think we all have answered that pretty well all together. Calling your superior is fantastic and should always be done when possible on this matter but our leaders aren’t some holy gods who know everything. That Igla incident I talked about was actually a situation where we had encountered one enemy transport helo dropping off troops. Because of this Squadlead decided to make his medic take the igla for the same reason Freghar describes: "It might come in handy". There was no point in doing this other than increasing effectiveness and here it was increasing it too much.

So even if you think we are beating this dead horse of yours there’s no answer in the rule. Your answer from this long discussion has clearly not been put enough out to the community. The superior can be just as much into this "loot everything" idea as the Recruit is. You’re not helping a kid learn math if you give him a teacher who thinks 2+2=5. That’s why I hoped that this thread would end with a statement about when to pick up weapons from enemy bodies and when to not. although we haven’t come to this exact statement I think that we have agreed that this habit should be toned down. Quite alot.

Now I’m happy that the opinions from this post were taken in from leadership and that they were taught in yesterday’s FTL training and I hope they will be mentioned in the next again for other learning leaders because it is easy to say that everyone should always ask their leader on the matter, but it is hard to teach a leader to make the right choice between taking the necessary and increase combat effectiveness too much leading to a break of immersion.

16

I as a new cannon fodder think this rule is great and that, along with another activity, is what infantry platoon does in real life. In the follow through phase of platoon attack, a team of soldiers is tasked with collecting all enemy prisoners of war (epw) and collecting, tagging their respective equipment. Equipment is then delivered to company level logistics element which then decide whether to destroy it or use it or forward it to btn level. Otherwise, even if the situation becomes so desperate that we need to use enemy weapons, it might be in very uneven and not optimal way where one squad usually tasked as maneuveur element becomes "overweight" carrying 35 AT missiles, 4 RPGs and what not, while the other on critical point of battlefield has none. In general, it’s always best to avoid using enemy weapons for all the reasons you’ve mentioned above.

Bottom line, if squad leaders have noticed a general problem with resupply, lack of ammo, explosives or weapons, maybe in such large operations a separate logistics element could be introduced.